“Stupid bastard dared to question the Son of God.” “He needed to die.” “Why, he must have wanted to commit suicide.” “No sane person would even try to defy God” ” — The fool has said in his heart, ‘There is no God.’”

And that dear children is how Xianity (and all the other so-called great monotheisms) treat those who will not obey God (Allah, JHVH).

Verdict: Socrates died by suicide while of unsound mind.

“So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.”
We were created like God. We have are capable of having feelings, desires, plans, and choices, just as God has. When we were created we were perfect we were good in the eyes of God. God did not create our sinful nature. God did not create sin. God created all things that are Good. Sin was created out of Luciphers (Satins) desire to be God. Pride. Before man sinned error wasn’t to be human. To be perfect was to be human. Yes and you were right in saying that our purpose is to serve and worship God. I like to put as we were created to glorify God. I wouldn’t want to sing to God for eternity either and that wasn’t the purpose I was created for. Worshipping God is a way of life. I can glorify God with everything I do. We don’t see any where in the bible of Adam singing to God. So how did Adam worship God? God gave Adam work. He was told to take care of the fish of the sea and every living thing that walked upon the earth, and also the plants. So Adam’s job was to take care of God’s creation. God also told Adam to be fruitful and multiply. So Adam took care of God’s creation then went and had sex with Eve. That was Adams purpose that’s what made him happy. Look at it this way. Man created computers with many purposes. You can e-mail, play games, work, find info, etc… All of those things fulfill the purpose of the computer, and are good according to man. Let’s say you use your computer as a basketball. That is not fulfilling the purpose of the computer. That would break the computer. There are many things that a computer can do that would fulfill its purpose. Basketball is not one of them. I’ve met Christians who glorify God by playing the drums, working outside, teaching kids, etc… All those things are good and can fulfill the purpose we were created for. God has given us many different and good abilities and we need to use them to fulfill our purpose to glorify God. When we don’t then there is something missing. Many people try to fill that spot with drugs, sex, money, food, family, religion, and so on. We can only be truly happy if we glorify God with our lives.

I believe sin is choosing not to follow God. Doing something that we know is not God’s will. God cannot look at sin. So when we sin we separate our selves from God. Hell is a place of complete separation from God. Where there is know evidence of God. We were also created to be with God. Hell is the opposite of what we were created for. We were created for life. God doesn’t want us to go to hell God doesn’t want natural disaster. After sin was born, physical death was given to us as a way out of earth to heaven. Why because earth is becoming more like hell since sin came. Look at places of where torture takes place and small children who starve to death. Where is God in that? I agree that God is omnipresent. But if he is the loving God that he says he is. He definitely isn’t working in those places of poverty. Christians have the duty to share God’s love with people. Jesus spent most of his time helping the needy. This is what Christians are meant to do. We are meant to reach out and help those people who are lost. The places that can be called hell on earth are where Christian should go to and make it more like heaven. So many “so called Christians” aren’t living the way God calls us to. We crowd our lives with church activities and other things. Instead of reaching out to the people that need bread, water, and love. The failure of Christians to live up to what we are called to be is as overwhelming to me as it is to you. I apologize for the way my so called brothers and sisters in Christ act. I believe a purpose God has given me is to show them how to really live. To have true life. To live with meaning and not just go on with life. What’s your purpose? I mess up and sin all the time so how can just God just forgive me of that. Well justice happened on the cross. Jesus was nailed to the cross with the guilt of every sinner upon his shoulders. Gods presence left him. So to Jesus went to hell in place of us. To be a Christian means to accept that Jesus took the penalty for my sin, or served Gods justice for me. Jesus went to hell so I don’t have to. Jesus also returned from hell. After accepting that, we need to start doing what we can to restore our relationship with God and to make this world more like heaven and not like hell.

I went off a lot but that’s okay. I know I probably raised a lot more questions than answered. Feel free to ask me more. I know there are many I didn’t answer. I will keep working on them.

I am having difficulty imagining how this will not lead us down the same path as Socrates and Jesus, for the answer you gave to the very first question - what is the purpose of life? - is the same that Jesus gave to Socrates, although your answer was worded slightly different and qualified by a longer explanation.

But, you are correct that it has raised more questions than it has answered, much like Jesus did when he answered Socrates’ question with a 6-syllable answer. And you seemed to anticipate one of the questions when you said:

Look at places of where torture takes place and small children who starve to death. Where is God in that?

But then your answer raised even more questions. You agreed that your god was omnipresent, and went on to acknowledge the real reason for asking the question when you talked of omnipresence and benevolence. But I can’t help but wonder, since you noted you agree specifically with the whole omnipresent thing, are you purposefully separating it from the other usual characteristics that might solve the problems you mentioned, namely omniscience and omnipotence? In other words, does your god have those characteristics?

If so, he is merely choosing to create a problem for “Christians” to solve, no? It sounds like you are saying that those who suffer are merely used as pawns in a game of ‘Who can glorify me better?’

Or is it not only sin, but suffering too, that is created out of Lucifer’s desire to be God?

And then, that begs the question: Who created Lucifer?

And even then, that begs the question: If your god is omnipotent, why is Lucifer still around? Or why was he even around long enough to create sin through nefarious reptilian activities?

Ignoring, for a second, the fact that your “man was perfect until he did something that wasn’t perfect” statement is a shining example of the circular reasoning that so many Christians wrap themselves up in, even without the omnipotence, your god should have been able to prevent that original sin. For his omnipresence would require that he be there when Lucifer was there, and perfect man would have chosen good god (Yahweh) over bad god (Lucifer). Seeing as how that didn’t happen, it seems to reason that whoever made man, made him with all the shortcomings that he has exhibited throughout time.

I could continue, so many questions raised just from what you said, but feel free to start with these.

First of all, I’m not asking these questions because there is a hole to fill. I have my purpose in life because I give it to myself, and am given it by those I choose to surround myself with. I’m not searching for answers to these questions as if those answers will help me discover something and lead me in the “right” direction. In other words, think of these questions to you as less of a philosophical quest for me, and more of a sociological endeavor.

I’m merely curious how someone like you can reconcile the inherent contradictions with regard to your god. I would ask the same questions of any theist, no matter how many other theists had answered the questions before. As you have alluded to in your own posts, each “Christian” follows your lord differently.

Second of all, I don’t continue to deny his existence simply because I don’t want to believe. I do so simply because I have been given no reason to believe. If I am given a reason (aside from utilitarian nonsense), then I will believe, it’s as simple as that.

Now that we have that straightened out… back on topic:

So, your god is omnipotent, omnipresent, and benevolent (I would assume he is also omniscient, but I’ll leave that out for now since you have not directly admitted that). According to you, if your god really wanted to (which he would want to, since he is benevolent), he could wipe out Satan and sin. Since he obviously hasn’t, we can assume that he is not benevolent, or not omnipotent - either one would explain why things are the way they are.

He would also not - as you suggest - send those who have sinned the way of Satan since he gave his one and only son for those sins, no?

But those are minor contradictions. You are obviously talking about the apocalypse, an area I didn’t want to jump into until you had rectified the logic of original sin. But, so be it…

In Matthew 24, the disciples asked Jesus about the end of the world, and Jesus

answered and said unto THEM… Take heed that no man deceive you… ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars… Ye shall see the abomination…

Your Jesus is clearly answering them directly, telling them what they shall see. He says that THEY specifically shall see these things. He goes on to say

THIS generation shall not pass until all these things be done

(also noted in Mark 13)

It is clear that he is speaking to his apostles, answering their inquiry. Oh, but the allegorical fun you can undoubtedly have with that. That is, if you don’t read Matthew 16, which talks even more clearly about this day and hour that are unknown, according to you. It says very clearly that there were some men standing there next to Jesus who will see his second coming.

I guess the day and hour were unknown, but the century and generation were not. Jesus clearly said that this time where your god chooses to abolish Satan and send those who follow sin with him would come during the lifetimes of his apostles. Jesus himself says so.

But even then, regardless of which symbolism you choose to invoke, it is clear that your god is merely creating problems for Christians to solve. Because those who suffer the indignities of your particular devil’s advocate (Lucifer himself) do so at the behest of your god. For anyone with the power to end it, who chooses not to, is also choosing to have it continue.

The way you explain it, it makes it look like those who are sinning and suffering are pawns in this game, merely questions on the test, hurdles in the race for heaven.

Now back to original sin… I wasn’t trying to imply that your god would force anyone to choose a certain way, or actively do something to prevent original sin. I was suggesting that merely through your god’s presence alone, the humans that he had created in his own image would have been compelled through nothing but their own perfection to choose him, even when both he and Lucifer were present in the Garden of Eden. And given the fact that they didn’t choose that way, it is safe to say that their supposed creator messed up. And that leads into a host of other problems with salvation and judgment, but we’ll leave those for later.

In Matthew 24 Jesus is prophesying to his disciples about the end times. In verse 3 the disciples ask

what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?

Jesus bluntly tells them what they will see when the end is aproaching. He doesn’t tell them that they will see those signs. Jesus just tells them that when they see them then they will know that the end times are approaching. Jesus being the son of God also knew that these things would be recorded so that future disciples can also know the signs of the end of the ages.

Mark 13:30 This generation shall not pass until all these things be done

The word generation comes from the greek word genea, meaning ones own kind or race. Jesus didn’t mean that the generation of his disciples would see these things, but that the human race would see would see all these things be done.

How can God with the power to stop Satan keep allowing Satan to reign on earth? You see God could do this himself, but he would much rather allow his children to be apart of this battle. God believes in us he believes that we can do it. I can defeat Satan in my life through the power of Jesus Christ who lives in me. God has given us a way out of sin. When I truly serve God it doesn’t matter how bad my circumstances get I can still have Joy. Through all these battles in my life I have grown and matured in my Faith. A good father doesn’t spoil his children. He teaches them to conquer. This is exactly what God wants to teach all people if we just present ourselves humble before him he will teach us.

Your basically saying in you last paragraph that if God made Adam and Eve the right way they wouldn’t have ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. So your saying God made a mistake when he created man. I can answer this one from my own experience. There are times when I am on a spiritual high. I can feel God’s presence completely in my life and it really wouldn’t matter how Satan tempted me with God that close to me it’s easy not to give in just like you said. But there are times when I’m not really feeling God. I know he’s there with me I just can’t really feel him sometimes. When I get tempted in these situations, that’s when I really have to make a choice. I know what God has told me, But Satan is trying to make the wrong decision not look so bad. When I come to that time I have to make the choice to either follow what I know God has told me or to follow what Satan is tempting me to do. Adam and Eve had to make the same decision. They knew what God said but the fruit was pleasing to the eye and they just had to taste it.

Oh and just skip over the other part I mentioned where he more clearly states how the people physically with him will see his second coming.

Also, I’m not saying God made a mistake. I think we’re fine, nothing sinful or terribly wrong with us humans. I am saying that you are wrong when you contend that man was perfect when your god made him, for that perfection would, by definition, rule out the possibility of making the sinful choice in the vein of free will. It’s a basic and simple contradiction which ultimately leads back to my question of who created Lucifer?

That said, your “Tuesdays with Socrates” was brilliant. I’m tempted to post portions with a link back here. More atheists need to enjoy that debate - a debate that jeebus clearly lost. And lost it very early…

Matt: I don’t suppose it’s been told to you, nor has it occurred to you, that this whole religious thing is a crashing bore. And that people who follow, like Three Blind Mice led by the Pied Piper of Nazareth, are just as tiresome.

I’ve found no reason to believe any of that xian “thang”. There is little relevance to modern life (and finding the relevance by winnowing a lot of verbal-chaff is also tedious). There is more important “morality” in Shakespeare than there is the bible. There is more science in a primary school textbook. And there is more of a useful guide in how to be a strong, confident and competent woman in a romance novel.

If your feelings have been hurt, that’s your choice. But this adult wants you to know that jeebus is for the eternal child.

Convince me as to how BronzeAge, tribal intelligence is useful or positive in 2007, and I’ll shut up. Convince me, if you can, that there is ANY goodness left in the xian religion. It’s all about the money and political power. It stopped being about Jesus almost 35 years ago…

I continue to “engage with someone like Matt”, because my line of questioning inevitably leads that person into an area of rationale that they are wholly unfamiliar with. In the case of the theist, it is my way of helping them reach the realization for themselves that what they are espousing is inherently contradictory.

Sure, I could simply tell them, and I do. But I continue in order to show them, because someone like Matt says something like:

God did not create our sinful nature. God did not create sin. God created all things that are Good. Sin was created out of Luciphers (Satins) desire to be God.

So when I ask him a relatively simple question, like “who created Lucifer?” He is forced by his own words to re-think his position, what he has said, and maybe, ultimately, what he believes. (I could only hope for so much)

In short, I continue so I can provide an ontological shock, of sorts, that forces them to think about what they are saying, for failing that would risk the shackles of blatant hypocrisy. So in this case, I expect Matt to either seriously reconsider what he has said, or find some alternate symbolic interpretation of certain words that will rationalize his beliefs ex post facto. Obviously, I prefer the former.

As for convincing you of any usefulness or positive nature in the Christian religion, I can’t, nor can anyone else. Because doing so would require a utilitarian argument that is, by definition, subjective. Much like the usefulness of a crutch, someone with a broken leg would find it entirely appropriate, while you - basking in the perfection of your two healthy legs - would only be hindered by using that crutch. In other words, it’s useful only to those who need it.

Plus, I wouldn’t wish to shut you up, anyway.

But, I confess, I have neither the patience, the desire, nor the skills to debate them. They only anger and frustrate me. Which precludes good debate; and they sense my feelings, I’m sure. (Not to mention my smug superiority…)

(*sigh*) If only there was a simple gateway (rather like a metal-detector at the airport) that they could be herded through, that would remove the need for the crutch and leave them feeling as free - of all that dogmatic baggage and “helpless need” for “faith” - as I do.

But their fear of freedom keeps them hopelessly enslaved, as others have observed, to their abusive god-spouse. A 12-Step program would take too long and face high rates of recidivism, I suppose.

Matt, come toward the Light of unbelief. Just follow Chris’ voice…

But somehow, nobody even mentions the elephant that’s been shitting in the corner for two thousand years.

BTW, the post’s title references two previous posts, with similar titles; organized religion is brutally tough on children.

Chris, see if you can’t straighten David out - if you can. Too many xians aren’t reasonable. Or reachable. Or can’t overcome their own intractability. I view them as stuck, unable to get out of their own way.

But since you chose to lump your praise on Matthew, perhaps you could pick up where he conspicuously left off, and answer the question… who created Lucifer?

Oh and, I’d like a first class ticket, if that’s at all possible. No sense having a filthy stubborn atheist, who truly worked his way into hell, sit back there in coach with all the hell-bound christians, who meant well but couldn’t carry the burden of righteousness. Perhaps, you could use your connections? no? Hook a brother up?

To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy.

The God that I serve is an unknown God. Everything that I base my knowledge on comes from God. The reason that I trust God so much is not because I can explain him all out with reason. I know that God is there just as much as I know the wind is there. I can’t see the wind, but I can certainly feel the wind, and see what it affects. I feel God. I can see work that he has done in my life and in the lives of my friends. I don’t understand the physics of a rollercoaster, that doesn’t mean I’m not going to ride it. Just because I don’t understand God doesn’t mean I’m not going to follow him. I would extremely limited if I only partook in things that I understood. I have very little understanding. Your right Naomi, I do use God as a crutch. My whole life is dependant on God. I would have no purpose to live if I didn’t have God in my life. I could never go back to living a life that has no purpose. I don’t really care about heaven and hell right now, but this life right now is so much better for me now that I am serving God. You guys may think I am a lunatic. That is also what they thought of the first Christians as well. They actually thought they were drunk. See Acts I believe ch. 2. David just so you know the number one cause of atheism in America is Christians. Those things that you said not only hurt my testimony but all other Christian testimony’s.

Chris I thank you for your patience with me and my shallow understanding. For me the Christian faith is a journey to discover God and share his love with others. I didn’t come to this website to tell you your going to hell and that you need to follow Jesus or else. I came to tell you that I love you guys. You ask the tough questions that most Christians don’t ask. You really are searching for the truth. I know you think my life is based on lies but for me there is nothing more thrilling than jumping on this roller coaster that I know so little about. Just like any relationship it takes time. The more I learn about God the more I realize how much I don’t know about God. Peace!

It is understandable that there is much you don’t know about your god, and that you have much to learn. What is not understandable is that you follow him anyway. I believe most Christians like to (falsely) refer to this as humility. You liken your god to the wind, but the wind does not get jealous when you believe the goosebumps on the back of your neck were caused by something else. The wind does not teach you of slavery, and eternal torture, and tell you to stone your children.

I certainly don’t expect one to partake only in things they understand, but to simply refrain from following to their death the things they don’t understand. There is a stark contrast between dabbling in certain areas out of curiosity and basing your entire life on such things.

That being said, know that I don’t think that David speaks for you, or hurts your testimony. Even though I may take his insults as evidence for the kind of individual that organized religion can create, I still value the significance of personal responsibility, and recognize the individuality of each person within that religion. I don’t like it when theists deflect responsibility and blame their beliefs/god/devil/etc., so I make it a point not to do it for them.

One problem I’m having with your dialogue is that you seem to put a very immature Xtianity in the mouth of your Jesus rather than the more reasonable and reasoned historical Xtianity.

I understand that your goal may be to go after the more childish and literal versions of Xtianity (and they abound) but the effect that you achieve only resonates with your atheist (or is that anti-theist) choir, as it were.

To the mature Xtian reader, all you do is attack a straw man that doesn’t represent the Jesus or the Christian cosmology that they know. All it does is lump us together with the literalists fundies while only tackling the most facile and shallow of our brethren’s beliefs.

Anyone can beat up on literalist fundies. Using a decidedly un-Xtian Jesus as your focus cheats us from seeing you take on a more challenging opponent.

To “Sin” means, as I’m sure you are already aware, to “miss the mark”. That’s where the Pseudo-Jesus vs Socrates seems to be to me at this point.

I’d love to see you try the same thing, but with a more accurate portrayal of mature historic Christian belief and doctrine.

Thanks for reminding me of a previous “Socrates talks with…” from years ago. Guitar Player magazine had a Socrates and Jimmy Hendrix article sometime back in the 1980’s.

For another dialogue between historical (ie, dead) figures, I highly recommend “Paul Meets Mohammed” by Michael Licona.

In fact, the pyramid I’m drawing for you is strange to look at. In proportion, the base is 10,000% larger than the height, making it the shallowest, one-storey pyramid you could imagine. Because at the bottom are all the empty-headed, knee-jerk reactionaries who attend church at least three times each week and have never read their bible. They take all their cues from their pastor, who likely didn’t go to a bible college, much less a reputable divinity school. There, you will find a potent symbiosis, with a “blind-leading-blind” (or stupid-leading-stupid) rat’s nest of hate, intolerance, bigotry and all-around meanness resulting in inbred little communities. If they were just here in the DeepSouth, I’d say “let them secede!” but, sadly, it now stretches from PA to KS, and although I don’t, you can include Texas in the South. That’s a shitload of mindless, easily manipulated lemmings!

As to Chris’ dialogue, I though it was perfect, especially when you realize which layer of my pyramid visits here - xian trolls come from the bottom, I promise you!

Certainly, though, you can understand how someone like me might mistakenly think the other version (read: the “immature”, “childish”, and “more literal” version) of Christianity to be the more biblically correct one. Thus, my agreement with the content of the discussion. And obviously, it “resonated” with more than the non-theists, as illustrated by the multiple comments above. I would also like to note that I disagree with your assessment of the conversation. I think David illustrated an immature and childish version of Christianity quite well, and I don’t think that is near the same as what was portrayed in the conversation between Socrates and Jesus.

Nevertheless, my goal with this post was not to “go after” anyone. My goal was to generate discussion. I have a genuine curiosity about the way some theists think, and that’s why I noted at the end of the post that I was interested in hearing answers to Socrates’ questions, because my own questions about religion and Christianity are eerily similar.

But I do see what you’re getting at when you differentiate between versions of Christianity. The dichotomy is similar to that portrayed in the Christian vs. Christ Follower video series. And, as I mentioned in my last response to Matt, I certainly recognize the individuality of each person, even if you do claim the same religion, there are obviously differences. And I respect that. But to call the conversation a “straw man” is to display an arrogance that is unbecoming of someone claiming to be the mature Christian. For it is only a straw man to you, because it doesn’t represent what you think is the true version of Christianity. But at the same time, Matt thinks that they are “very good questions” about his religion.

Being that you think yourself a part of the educated, reasoned, historical Christianity, perhaps you would venture to answer some of the questions as they relate to your version of that religion. And we can create together, a conversation “with a more accurate portrayal of mature historic Christian belief and doctrine.”

Of course, for these purposes, “more accurate” means “more in line with your beliefs.”

somewhere in this dialongue Socrates is wondering what angels are .. and Jesus answer him that angels are angels…
the word angel is actually a greek one and means the messanger , Socrates as Greek should know that and should at least presume that angels are something like the messangers of God ..
what is more , Jesus says at quite many times that “God works his wonders in mysterious ways” .. Jesus in all Christian religions around the world is the God , equal to God , son of God … the Father the son and the holy spirit is one , each of them is the God and all three is the God … so Jesus in this dialongue should now God’s mysterious ways …

you people need to get off the internet and get a life.ok.

ahh, the irony…

so Jesus in this dialongue should now God’s mysterious ways …

Interesting observation Markos. It’s a wonder how so many people who claim to know Jesus so well still use the same mysterious explanation. I mean, with the copious infallible writings available from the teachings of Jesus and whatnot…

I venture to say that my life is fuller and richer than “none” who lives in Jesus-La-La-land. How childish of him to stick his wittle fingers in his ears and chant, “I can’t HEAR you.” And his respect for our First Amendment right to free speech? Sadly missing…

This “Jesus” here doesn’t seem to be very clear about some things …

Though for me there are answers to the questions that “Socrates” poses to “Jesus” … at least they are answers from the perspective I see things… a lot of questions I had about life were clarified after I read a book called “Conversations with God” …

In truth, there is nothing evil,
only objective phenomena and experience.

Yet your very purpose in life
requires you to select
from the growing collection of endless phenomena
a scattered few which you call evil
– for unless you do,
you cannot call yourself,
nor anything else, good –
and thus cannot know, or create,
your Self.

- Conversations with God, Book 1, p.133

A thing cannot exist without its opposite, except in the world of the absolute. Yet the realm of the absolute was not sufficient for either you or Me. I existed there, in the always, and it is from where you, too, have come.
In the absolute there is no experience, only knowing. Knowing is a divine state, yet the grandest joy is in being.
Being is achieved only after experience. The evolution is this: knowing, experiencing, being.

- Conversations with God, Book 1, p.29